Join guest host Fran Miller, senior staff attorney and adjunct faculty, and her guest, Mavis Gragg, CEO of HeirShares, as they discuss her work empowering families to use real estate as a source for intergenerational resiliency and wealth, and her work building groundbreaking technology to facilitate affordable solutions for family real estate ownership.
Announcer
This podcast is a production of the Maverick Lloyd School for the Environment, a Vermont law and graduate school.
Fran Miller
Hello, everyone, and welcome to the Hothouse Earth podcast. I am Fran Miller, your guest host. Today. I am senior staff attorney and adjunct faculty at the Center for Agriculture and Food Systems here at Vermont Law and Graduate School, which is part of the Environmental Law Center. Today, we're going to be talking about heirs property. Heirs property is commonly known as family land or inherited land.
There's a rich history of families acquiring land in America, and then that land passing down to subsequent generations as a wealth-building activity, or just as a place for family to gather families here in New England might have a camp on a lake or in the mountains at which family gathers in the summer, for example, in the south, it can be a place for a family reunion as well.
Family land can be a source of so much joy, however, especially in the African-American community and some other communities, it's been a vulnerable way of holding land and the source of a significant amount of loss of land in America due to a number of factors which we will get into with our guest. So today, I'm so happy to welcome Mavis Gregg to the podcast.
Hello, Mavis.
Mavis Gragg
Hello Fran!
Fran Miller
So nice to see you here. Mavis is an attorney and conservation professional, empowering families to use real estate as a source for intergenerational resiliency and wealth. Mavis recently served as the director of the Sustainable Forestry and African-American Land Retention Program, known to many of us as SFR, and she's currently the CEO of Air Shares, which is building groundbreaking technology to facilitate affordable solutions for family real estate ownership.
Mavis is just finishing up a Loeb fellowship at Harvard. One of a very few lawyers who have that distinguished honor. She has previously chaired the North Carolina Parks and Recreation Trust Fund Authority, and as well as chairing the Board of Triangle Land Conservancy. So she has major conservation chops this year, Mavis was the distinguished Agriculture and Food system scholar at Fields and has given several Hot Topic lectures at the school on environmental law.
So thank you so much for joining me to talk about heirs property today.
Mavis Gragg
Happy to be here, Fran.
Fran Miller
I met Mavis in 2019 when I began working on Heirs property issues with the Federation of Southern Cooperatives and the Policy Research Center for Socially Disadvantaged Farmers and Ranchers. We know as the Policy Center is located at Alcorn State, I have been creating fact sheets for each of the southern states that discuss the legal issues that arise for families who own heirs property.
I'll give a plug for the Farmland Access Legal Toolkit, which is at FarmlandAccess.org, and you can find the Heirs property section under farm transfer. So when I started doing that in 2019, someone recommended that I speak to you about my North Carolina factsheet. And here we are five years later. Unbelievable.
Mavis Gragg
Wait, it's been five years.
Fran Miller
I know. It's crazy.
Mavis Gragg
A lot of it happened in five years.
Fran Miller
It has. So much and I want to get there. But first I just want to help the audience understand a little bit more about the vulnerabilities of holding land as heirs property. So that the audience understands what the implications are and how important this issue is. So can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Mavis Gragg
Sure. And to start off, I'll say the root of the vulnerabilities are around being able to prove ownership and also the legal bundle of rights attached to the ownership model. So as you mentioned, heirs properties simply inherit it. Real estate where ownership succession is happening through inheritance. And that's contrasted from ownership succession happening by deeds. You know, with the deed.
It's a legal document and we record it and it keeps a paper trail and with inheritance there's not. And now on top of that, there's a lot of unpredictability because we are looking at ownership transfers when someone dies and based on who in their immediate family is left behind and entitled to inherit. So given that ownership succession is passing through inheritance and it's passing to the deceased person's immediate family, the number of owners of a piece of real estate or just an interest in a piece of real estate likely will increase if someone is survived by more than one person, meaning that multiple people can be entitled to inherit a person's real estate.
And so not only do we not know who we don't know how many are other vulnerabilities, as I mentioned, stem from the legal bundle of rights. So when we think about real estate ownership, there are different classifications of that ownership and rights associated with each of those classifications. So, for example, Fran, if you and I were married, but if we were married and we acquired real estate together, there are automatic there's a specific bundle of rights attached to that by virtue of us being a married couple.
And one of those rights is the right of survivorship. Another right or obligation is that as a spouse, I cannot transfer my interests in the property to someone else without your permission. So there's like some specific protections with inherited property, with heirs, property. The bundle of rights is called tenants in common, and it allows any co-owner to transfer to whomever they want while they are live.
It also allows any co-owner to seek court action using partition laws. And partition laws are meant to sever co-ownership, however, with heirs, property and where we get into vulnerability, what happens is partition laws are not used to sever ownership. They're used to forced to sell the property because what happens is the court has to decide if the property can be physically divided, proportional to each owner, share as a way of severing the ownership.
And if the court can't do that, they will instead sell the property and then just distribute the proceeds from the sale accordingly. And so we've seen over the last several decades third parties, mostly third parties who are buying inches and heirs property and forcing the sale of it. Other complications related to the vulnerability are under use, under management, under stewardship, because with this, one of the rights that requires unanimous decision making amongst the co-owners, which can be very difficult, and then the ownership interests just if anyone dies, any co owner dies, it just goes to their heirs.
So there's not a lot of support from a legal perspective to ensure that the property can be stewarded and used at its optimal condition.
Fran Miller
That is a lot of information right there and a really helpful explanation of why it's difficult to own property as heirs property. One of the things that I've come across in the work that I've done is almost every black person that I speak with knows what heirs property is, has family land. It's pretty common in the African-American community, and a lot of white folks don't necessarily know about it.
Do you have any sense of how prevalent it is? Is there a data that shows how much acreage we're talking about? Is this a huge issue across the country?
Mavis Gragg
Yeah, and thankfully, we've actually seen some data come forward through GIS mapping that helps us understand how much heirs property there is in the US and there is a substantial amount. My understanding that is that nationally and this is not even inclusive of all heirs property, but nationally there's at a minimum like $30 billion worth of family owned real estate, and this includes urban areas and rural areas.
And so if you think about how much real estate is owned in this way and vulnerable, that's pretty significant. But turning to your point about the prevalence of heirs property, I feel like anytime I present on heirs property and there's black people in the audience, most can relate to what I'm saying, including myself. I own heirs property and that is because of the history of our legal systems in America in relation to African-Americans and race and discrimination.
So for many families, not doing succession planning, not using legal instruments and the legal system to manage ownership succession was a protective measure. Because when you avail yourself to the courts and to the public records, it could in it could actually attract predatory behavior. And we know that many African-Americans were targeted in relation to their lands by people who believe that they should not be able to own the land or that that land was not really theirs.
So, historically speaking, African-Americans managed ownership succession through inheritance because it did not require engagement with the legal system directly. And so then we have a lot of heirs, property. The other interesting thing to think about in the public, I think it's often considered a black issue. And so I do think it's important for us to distinguish like the disproportionate impact from the fact that most American families who maintain real estate from generation to generation and legally have heirs property, meaning that most Americans don't have succession plans that are comprehensive and ensure multiple generations of ownership in the way that we would like to see it.
But I think from a an identity perspective, because the media and the public generally have couched this as the black issue, there's somewhat of a disassociation from the term heirs property. But as you mentioned earlier, you know, Vermont families, for example, may have campsites and cabins, etc., that are owned by multiple family members who inherited their share. Well, by definition, that is is heirs property.
Fran Miller
Yes, absolutely. Mavis, I actually have a friend whose dad passed and he and his siblings are fighting over the property because his dad had no will and they want to sell the farm and he wants to stay on the farm and they want the money. And it's just, you know, a classic heirs property issue. It is exactly that.
And I think some of it, too, is a class issue. If you have the means and the access to legal services, then you have more of an estate plan, etc.. But if you don't, you don't have access.
Mavis Gragg
So land rich cash, poor families, whether they're black or white or any race, often do not have legal tools that are supporting their their generational ownership.
Fran Miller
Right. Right. It is a social justice issue. And I think that makes it broader than just a single problem. I think it is along the lines of the variety of social justice issues that we're facing in our country, whether it's climate change or farm worker rights or you name it. It's just another bundle in there, another stick in that bundle of social justice rights.
Mavis Gragg
I will say that there's new energy to the movement. I do think that the more that we've seen the cross-sector interest in the issue and action on that interest has been tremendous in the last few years. And so, you know, to your credit and to the Center for AG and Food Systems Credit, along with other organizations, including or companies in the private sector, we've just seen a lot of attention paid to it.
We're also seeing a lot of resources being directed to supporting property owners. And of course, for me, what I've appreciated even more was more resources and connectivity amongst the legal practitioners who are doing the work. And I think that that's been a huge deficit historically in this areas. Property movement. You know, we we certainly center around the law and the challenges with the law, but we really haven't centered the action around practice.
And so going to your point about social justice, one of the reasons this is a social justice issue is literally access to legal services. Many areas property owners can't access legal services, one because of the amount of money required. But also a lot of lawyers will not do this type of work given the complexity. And so what we've seen recently and what you and I have had the privilege of working on is building a network of attorneys who are heirs, property practitioners, the heirs, property practitioner network, someone.
So that makes that makes more visibility of the lawyers who are doing this work. But I actually think that through our connecting and sharing and learning and growing as a network, we are piquing the interest of other attorneys in doing this work and including larger firms who can use their resources to support more impactful full legal services.
Hmm. And those of us who are newer to the space are standing on the shoulders of those who came before us and who really have kind of worked diligently and doggedly to help families and try to get some policy changes to make things better. You mentioned the Heirs Property Practitioner Network. Share a little bit with the audience how it's helpful to practitioners and who they are and what does it mean to be a heirs property practitioner?
What has been most rewarding about the network is hearing continually all of these attorneys who are working on these really complex matters and, you know, very high risk loss matters, find community and expressed that this this organization has been so valuable to them, even if it's just having some people who can relate to what they're experiencing on a day to day, but also because we have this peer to peer education as part of our core value.
And so every meeting that we have members of the network are sharing their knowledge. And so whether you are an experienced expert attorney on heirs, property or new to the space, there is an opportunity to connect. And so that's been tremendous. And then I think we're also approaching a time when the network will consider what the best standards of the practice are.
And I think that's going to be powerful too, because it's going to set up, I believe, expectations in general, whether you're a member of the network or not, but for how we approach this practice and it includes cultural sensitivity and not just from a race perspective or an ethnicity perspective, but from a socioeconomic perspective, from a rural, urban perspective, etc. It will include strategies for ensuring healthy succession of real estate and helping stewardship of family owned real estate.
So that's exciting too, because again, even though the issues the heirs property owners experience are related to the law, the role of the practitioner, the legal practitioner has been largely overlooked. And so now that we are gathered as a network, there'll be more capabilities to influence policy and strategy, which I think is exciting to you.
Fran Miller
Yeah, I was really struck me this at our call this week. One of the attorneys was talking about a successful partition case that he handled, and he just gave so many kudos to the Happen Network. It seemed like he just he felt so supported by just being able to write an email to the listserv and get an answer or talk to somebody on the side or just have us available.
Mavis Gragg
Yeah, that I didn't know that the issue that was being litigated was a new issue to be explored under that legislation, and I definitely didn't know that this was his like one of his first heirs probably cases. And so that is phenomenal. Like someone who just entered this space was able to get support and achieve success. I mean, even if they even if they hadn't won on the issue, I think it's still an example of success in terms of how he was able to get ready and advocate for his clients and seek a resolution that should be fair to all of the all of the owners.
So that was awesome.
The other thing I was struck by about the call was the incredible expertise around will drafting, because it wasn't just about drafting a will to avoid heirs property, which is one of the key ways to prevent heirs property is to have a good succession plan that includes a will. You all were really talking about the whole client. The whole process was not just about the technical language to be used in the will, and I found that really kind of exciting.
Fran Miller
I like wills and exciting or kind of funny to have in the same sentence, but it was because it was so much more than just a will. It really was holistic and felt bigger in terms of the impact that could be had for the families in the future.
Mavis Gragg
Absolutely. The conversation we were having the other day in the happened panel was akin to that in terms of what members were focused on giving advice for the sake of justice, like the resource sharing, the knowledge sharing between the lawyers. But to your point, the objective was justice in a holistic sense. We want them to be able to preserve their legacy.
We want them to be able to be resilient. We want them to be able to steward. And so we were talking about all kinds of creative strategies in drafting, in client counseling, what have you, that were we're speaking to that. And it was it was quite, quite nice.
Fran Miller
Yeah. I highly recommend if anybody listening to this is a lawyer who does probate wills in the States, trusts real estate, wants to do any work on heirs property, join the network because it is really awesome. Okay, Mavis, another question here. How do you see the issue of heirs, property and the the legal issues that stem from it, including the lack of clear title and multiple owners?
How does this fit into the larger issues of climate change? Climate change, mitigation and conservation? Kind of putting on your conservation hat for a minute.
Mavis Gragg
Yeah, I think there are numerous opportunities and reasons why those of us in the conservation space should pay attention to areas, property and and understand how we might be impacted, but also how we might put into the effort of changing the state of things for heirs, property owners, the highest proportion of our forests are owned by families who presumably are keeping it in the family for generations, two generations, the amount of agricultural land that is owned by families across the U.S. is substantial as well and also urban areas.
And so then when we look at these maps, identifying hotspots of heirs property, when we look at them in comparison to maps, identifying flooding or areas that are constant, we hit by natural disasters, etc., there is often a limit in where these heirs, property owners are and where these conservation threats are, but also conservation opportunities. There are many examples of conservation organizations advocating for legislation supporting the various property owners, and this ranges from the other bond to wildlife defenders.
And then, like state and regional organizations, I think it's important to understand that where you have high concentrations of heirs, property or opportunities to do stewardship, preservation, etc., it's important to understand how they align or be misaligned and need to be addressed.
So those organizations, some of those conservation organizations are actively supporting policy change for heirs property owners because their interests are aligned in that way.
Yeah, they're supporting policy change, but they're also providing capital.
So is it impactful in a broader way to combat climate change for heirs, property owners to be able to clear their title, to be able to use their land in the way that they want to?
I think so, because for the audience's understanding, clear title just means that we've confirmed who the owners are. We've confirmed what legal restrictions attached to the property exists, and we've addressed those. When you have that level of of legal confirmation, you are in a better position to make sound decisions regarding the property. You can consider more options for how the property is used.
If we think about conservation at scale, along with that is clearing title at scale. And you and I have talked about this and others in the in the happened network have talked about how if if we could just get more titles clear, you know, meaning that the ownership is confirmed etc., then heirs property attorneys could focus solely on strategy for going forward, inclusive of conservation.
Fran Miller
Yeah. In other words, it benefits us as a society as a whole to put resources into ensuring that families have clear title as you describe legal confirmation of who the owner is, and then that attorney can move forward with how to preserve that and what the family can do next.
Mavis Gragg
Yeah, in fact, there's already some precedents to that. And World Wildlife Federation have put resource into making sure that their legal services for heirs, property owners in two states where they do conservation and source timber. And the reason being that is that they want it to ensure that heirs property owners are better positioned to participate in their conservation efforts and markets.
Fran Miller
So having more clear title both benefits to families, it benefits society, it benefits the market. Even it benefits corporate interests. It's all aligns well. I have one more question for you, Mavis. So, Mavis, I know you were in private practice for some time serving clients. You're not doing that now. I think you're closing up your practice. So what is your work now on Heirs Property?
Mavis Gragg
I went from being a lawyer to a tech producer.
Fran Miller
Techpreneur and love that word.
Mavis Gragg
I think it's funny. It just makes me giggle. But I feel like there's wonderful technology out there that just makes my life better. So I wanted to find out whether we could create wonderful technology that makes heirs, property owners lives better. So that's why we created air shares. It's really a vehicle to kind of unearth the the legal processes that are needed by heirs, property owners and could be supported through technology.
And so the first process that we started with is tracing ownership. And again, that's one of the most common issues that heirs property owners have is that they can't prove ownership based on how ownership changes and so our our first app is a tool that supports the process of tracing ownership and confirming who the current owners are. And it does math.
It helps calculate the shares. So that's pretty exciting. And then there's some other tools that we want to build that will be supportive of co-management and qualifying for programs, whether it's a lending program, an agricultural program, a disaster relief program, tools that simplify the process of proving ownership and qualifying for these programs.
Fran Miller
That's so wonderful. So the first app, it's creating a family tree. Is that what it allows people to do?
Mavis Gragg
It's right now it's in a more viable product version. So it's in a beta version, so to speak, for us to test. So right now we're testing the core functions, which are the functions that use family tree data to make predictive analysis of ownership changes and calculate shares. In its most robust version. It will allow for building the family tree and at the same time taking that family tree data to do that analysis.
Fran Miller
Mavis, I want to thank you so much for being here with us on the Hothouse Earth podcast. Thank you. Thank you. It's been wonderful talking with you. It's wonderful working with you. I look forward to many years of policy change and helping families and standing up for the good guys.
Mavis Gragg
Fran, thank you. This has been a great conversation and I say likewise, I'm excited about the work we're doing and I look forward to doing it more.
Fran Miller
Thank you, Mavis, and thank you listeners. If you're interested in learning more about this topic or any of the others that Hothouse Earth covers, please go to our web page and you will find links for additional readings. Thank you.
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