Pat Parenteau, Professor of Law Emeritus and Senior Fellow for Climate Policy at Vermont Law and Graduate School, chats about his career and how environmental law and policy has evolved, with podcast host, Jeannie Oliver, professor of law and staff attorney at VLGS’s Energy Clinic.
In this episode, Pat Parenteau, Professor of Law Emeritus and Senior Fellow for Climate Policy at Vermont Law and Graduate School, chats about his career and how environmental law and policy has evolved, with podcast host, Jeannie Oliver, professor of law and staff attorney at VLGS’s Energy Clinic.
Thank you to the Vermont School for the Environment at Vermont Law and Graduate School, Jenifer Rushlow, Anne Linehan, and Donna Kowalewski at Environmental Law Center.
HOT HOUSE EARTH PODCAST TRANSCRIPT
Pat Parenteau
Jeannie Oliver
Welcome back to Hot House.
I'm your host, Jeannie Oliver, and I'm going to be joined today by Professor Pat Parenteau, a hot house regular. Professor Pat Parenteau, recently retired from a long career in environmental and climate law which included 30 years here at Vermont Law and Graduate School where he served as the director of the Environmental Law Center.
He taught a full range of environmental and climate classes, and he found that the environmental and natural resources law clinic, which gave students like me an opportunity to work on environmental litigation of national significance and learn how to become truly outstanding environmental advocates. This year pat was honored with the American Bar Association Section on Environmental Energy and Resources, with its lifetime achievement award for his work in the space.
And our listeners will remember Pat from our past episodes on the youth climate movement and the trump era energy policy.
Pat! Welcome back to Hot House Earth. It's such a pleasure to have you here today.
Pat Parenteau
Thanks, Jennie. Great to be with you.
Jeannie Oliver
So Pat, first on behalf of everyone at Vermont Law and Graduate School I just wanted to give you a very sincere and heart-felt thank you for all of the work you've done, not just here at Vermont Law and Graduate School, but also on behalf of the environment and on behalf of climate, and really acknowledge what a multiplying effect your work has had as you've inspired thousands of students like myself.
I had the honor of being in your class when I was a student, and then your colleague, and send them out into the world to continue the work that you started way back, right?
Pat Parenteau
Right. Well, thank you for being so kind of generous. I really appreciate it.
I'll tell you where I get the greatest sense section is from my colleagues like you, and from the tune I've had I mean my mark of success.
If I can claim it is, is really seeing the work that our students from Vermont Law School now Vermont Law and Graduate School are doing, and I see it every day. I see them in the news. I see them in court, I see them in conference. I see them and agencies. I see them in corporations, and it's really that pay-it-forward aspects I think, of my career that's most satisfying.
Jeannie Oliver
I couldn't agree more. I’m just on the smallest scale since I've been working as a professor here at Vermont Law and Graduate School that’s also what gives me the most satisfaction as well. And Pat, I really wanted to take this opportunity today to talk about your career and really celebrate the work you've done, and at the same time help others who might be thinking about a career in environmental law or environmental advocacy or in climate law and climate, advocacy. Help them really understand what is exactly environmental law, environmental advocacy, climate, law, climate, and advocacy.
And then maybe other listeners out there who just wanna know a little bit more about what people like you and what our students go on to do in this space. So I thought a really great place to start might be to have you take us back to the beginning and talk about what inspired you to become an environmental lawyer.
When did you realize you wanted to be an environmental lawyer and and what did you think that wouldn't entail?
Pat Parenteau
Yeah, I think the thing that imprinted on me, sort of a love of nature at an early age was, I grew up in Nebraska, and the great plains, and in those early days, I'm talking now,I was born in 1947, But I'm, I'm the classic post-war baby boomer. And so I was taken to the field early on, and in the 50s to hunt pheasants and quail and other game birds, and also fish, and do other things out-of-doors. And so I began to connect with nature, and there was a particular moment, when I was with my uncle, and we were hunting along the Platte River, in the central part of Nebraska, and we saw this really large, white, beautiful white bird with a red cap and black tips on its wings.
I had no idea what it was and neither did my uncle, but it turned out it was a whooping crane, and it was one of very, very few. In
fact, at that time, and the I'm now going all the way back into the 1950s. At that time, we're probably only 30 whooping cranes alive in the wild. So, even though I didn't realize what it was, I was seeing, I do think that moment stuck with me, and as I went on to college and law school and tried to find myself and figure out what I wanted to do, it would…
My mother had a lot to do with it. She gave me the right books to read. She encouraged me to explore nature. Do…, you know, understand how biology and ecology would work in in the natural world. She was really, you know, wonderful, frankly, it getting me out of my shell and outdoors.
But as I looked at at a a career path, I was emerging from law school in 1972 right at the moment, of course, the environmental law movement was really growing - growing and and exploding. In fact, you know, Earth Day, 1970, and all of that. So, it didn't take me too long to figure out that this new field of environmental law, which was all about protecting the environment, protecting people.
Jeannie Oliver
And so given that environmental law was just emerging, I imagine they weren't really courses taught at law school at that time.
How did you go about getting into that space?
Pat Parenteau
I represented a minority black community in Council Bluff, Iowa. Our jurisdiction straddle the Missouri River from Omaha to Council Bluffs, and there was a Major highway being proposed, and of course, we were gonna put it the interchange right in the middle of the black community. So we challenged the highway department's proposal to build this interchange, and I I had just discovered this new law called NEPA (Actual Environmental Policy Act) and so I saw that there was a conference in St. Louis. In those days, I'm not even sure how I found out. We didn't have Internet. We didn’t have cell phones, but I found out that the Environmental Law Institute which has just been created in 1970, who was sponsoring this conference on NEPA with a focus on highways.
So I went to this conference, learned about how to use this law, brought a lawsuit, and manage to get the project re …relocated so that it avoided this black community.
So once that happened, then I was really hooked, and that's when I do decided to go to George Washington University, which at that time had the only Master of Environmental Law program in the country,
Jeannie Oliver
Sort of natural resource protection and the tools, the legal tools that were created in the 70s were were intended to fix the current environmental problems.
How have you seen environmental laws and and your career as well?
How did that evolve over the course of the last 30, 40, 50 years?
Pat Parenteau
So you know the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, resource conservation Recovery Act, super fund, all of those laws explode in the in the 70s, and they were all focused on problems that were localized, you know, as as time went on we began to understand that you couldn't just look at individuals pieces of habitat, for example, or wetlands in isolation or streams and rivers in isolation. We did begin to realize that you have to broaden your scope to look at entire watersheds or air sheds, and you had to understand that environmental problems were trans-bounded, that that they cross long distances, but it would still mainly the law was still mainly focused on sources and locality and geographic and site-specific issues, right? And and you know, that has been turned completely upside down with climate, the climate crisis.
And it is a crisis. We might as well name it, and we can talk to more about that. You know the the early laws showed a lot of great success.
the problems that we saw in 70s into the 80s and 90s and the laws did much of what they were designed to do.
It just turned out that the problems were much greater than we thought.
That they really were global. And and that's probably been the most striking thing I've noticed in my 50-year, now 5-decades, career is is how it's all global now.
And and you know the stratospheric ozone layer problem should have, that's in the 1980s, mid-80s, that should have done more to alert us to the global nature of environmental challenges.
But now we're now struggling with yet again trying to find an alternative to those chemicals they're called HFC, Hydrofluorocarbons,Okay. So you know, we we've we've we've had to learn that you have to approach these problems holistically, globally, systemically.
All of the problems are rooted in the economy. And so over time, I've had to learn more about economic theory both in concept and practice versus both, you know, sort of pure economic thinking.
Oh, you know another insight here is that it's not enough to know the law. It's not enough to know the science and it's not even enough to know the technology. You do have to put together a system that addresses the root causes of all of these environmental problems spectacularly. Now, climate crisis, which means the transformation of all forms.
Oh, economic activity, every sector, buildings, transportation, electricity, fuel, oil for houses, agriculture, every single aspect, clothing, food, every aspect of human activity has to change. So, nothing is more striking to me. Then then the realization that, coming at problems individually, or only looking at the symptoms of problems, we're only looking at identifiable sources of problems that are subject to a single jurisdiction, whether that's state or even a nation.
But understanding the interrelationship of these problems and sources, and their interrelationship with the economic system, the financial system. Where does the money go, and why does it go? One place as opposed to another? And if you want to transition to a different economy, that's less dependent on polluting sources, including carbon pollution of the atmosphere, you've got to really think broadly.
So, in answer to your earlier question about what is environmental law?
The thing that now comes to my mind is it literally is everything. It's literally everything. It's tax policy. It’s corporations policy. It’s fiscal policy. It’s security law. It’s banking law. It’s everything. So there is still going to be a need for lawyers and environmental specialists.
Jeannie Oliver
Yeah, So talking about all the different areas that environmental law ought to touch - does touch in reality, that sort of creates a conundrum for students who want to learn environmental law, like, what do they focus on in the short term?
I think what I'm taking away from you, Pat, is that it's gonna take a team, a bigger team of environmental lawyers, all of whom are specializing, perhaps in these different areas. The tax law, more environmental statutes, energy, law policy, and all of us coming together. And working together to shape these systems and have a real impact on these bigger global problems. Whereas before, perhaps environmental law was a much more discrete subject matter to to study and practice.
Pat Parenteau
That's what's sharpens your own thinking, and challenges your own thinking. And sometimes you have to be open to the fact that you're wrong. And that's another thing I had to learn.
So you need that instinct of being willing to push yourself and take chances and have confidence in you're abilities. You desperately need those qualities, but at the same time you. You have to be open to the, you know possibility that you still have a lot to learn that you could be wrong, that that your opponent might actually have a valid point, and whether or not you're in a position to concede that point at any particular time. Is not always a question. It's more like, did I just learn something from this conversation or the conflict? Is it controversy that we had to resolve?
That will help me be a better lawyer, a better person, and and a better problem solver? That's really the essence, isn't it of what we do is it's it's supposed to be, anyway, solving problems, maybe avoiding problems of course, anticipating problems, advising clients. You know how to avoid these kinds of problems, legal problems.
It's, you know. It's also in your own career. How do you evolve and and develop yourself? You know, in academia, you know, that's a question of helping young scholars build their scholarship, and young teachers learn the best strategies for teaching, whether it's in a large class setting a seminar setting a clinical setting, different techniques, different methodologies, different skill sets, you know, have to be learned. They, they, they aren't necessarily innate or natural.
Jeannie Oliver
Yeah. Thanks. My advice as well for students coming up through these degrees right now is, if you really care about these issues, which all of them do, even if you are finding it hard and you're not a natural editor, and it's an uncomfortable process of growth, it's so worth hanging in there, because ultimately you're gonna have a career that's incredibly meaningful. And hopefully leaves the world in a better place because of that hard work you're putting in now, and over the course of your career, like you've done Pat.
Pat Parenteau
Yeah, I think hard work does pay. I mean, There's that satisfaction in just knowing you work hard. And you gave it your best shot that you left it on the field as we say. Yeah, losses are bitter. There's no question about it, but they're temporary.
The point is you, you really do need to take the long view, and particularly now with the climate crisis. My advice to the young advocates that are emerging from not only law schools but professional schools at large, is this is going to be your life’s work.
This 21st century is the century of climate. And, the the proportion of these different challenges. How effective are we at reducing emissions and getting a handle and improving the sequestration systems of the earth, the forest and the soil and the wetlands, and all the rests, of these gases and the pollution, so producing the admission to increasing the sequestration, that challenge right along with the the galloping challenges of adapting is it's on rushing fires, droughts, floods, heat waves.
Jeannie Oliver
I think, going back to your previous statement about what is environmental law, and I guess now what is climate law, which encompasses environmental law also, and each of us in the legal space has a different skill and tool that we can bring to these problems. And so making sure that we're using our own expertise in this field and there's many different ways to do it. So kind of exciting.
Pat Parenteau
What you wanna look for are jobs and career tracks. Where you can improve, where you're gonna get good critical feedback, like we talked about, gonna get assignments to the challenge you but support that helps you succeed. You want a work environment where the work is meaningful, and where your role is appreciated and respected, and where your views listened to, and sometimes they're followed, and sometimes they're not.
And you're okay with that. And so as long as you can conceptualize your role as doing the hard work of researching the problem, understanding the facts, understanding the science, understanding the technology, understanding the land use, whatever it is that you're focused on understand it as well as you can possibly understand it find
The law that applies, evaluated the law, and the facts develop an opinion, develop advice, or develop a lawsuit, or develop a rule, or write a permit. It doesn't matter. All of these different instruments of our trade. It doesn't matter. They all involve the same skills.
Can you research? Can you write? Can you think? Can you analyze?
Can you evaluate? Can you communicate? So if you stay focused on all of those basics and you become as good as you can possibly be at those things? It doesn't matter where you go with it, just go where your heart tells you.
And go where the opportunities are obviously and just make the most of it. And if it turns out it wasn't quite what you expected, fine, make a change. There's always going to be opportunities for change, but opportunities that have come up my life, nothing that I can see, none of them.
So I just don't worry about it. You just do to become, you know, the best part of you that you can be, and then the opportunities will be there.
The jobs will be there for you to show what you can do, and the difference that you can make. And that's why, in one sense, although the the you know climate, it presents a real crisis. Like all crises, it also presents the hell of an opportunity. You know this generation has the opportunity to literally be the best generation of the 21st century.
So you know, that's that's the way I think of our current generation of emerging lawyers and environmental professionals need to think about what an incredible opportunity I have to do something.
Really meaningful for the world. It's gonna benefit people in all kinds of ways, better jobs better. Systems, more fair, more equitable. All that stuff is is the challenge right now,
Jeannie Oliver
So Pat, what's next for you?
What are you going to be doing in your retirement?
Can you even retire?
Pat Parenteau
I've been reading a whole lot more about banking regulation than I ever thought I would even securities. Law. Then I thought I would. And all this stuff about ESG (Environment Social Governance) and private governance and greenwashing, and the role of lawyers in all of this process, law lawyers rules.
There's some things happening here that I'll be writing about and talking about. But I, I haven't given up completely on my interest in litigation, so I've taken most of this new case just filed in Puerto Rico you know, in implementing.
The racketeering law RICO, and challenging oil companies under a civil Rico case, which is a fascinating new development in this whole field of climate litigation.
I just finished the chapter of a book on climate litigation. I'm gonna keep building on that. There's lots of rites-based climate litigation occurring in other parts of the world, not so much the United States, but in Europe and in South America and other parts of the world, there's some very interesting developments, and I'll I'll keep my hand in one way or another.
Jeannie Oliver
We just thank you so much for your service and for all of the work that you've done, and that you're continuing to do for the environment and climate and for all of the students here at the Vermont Law and Graduate School and your colleagues here.
We miss you. We miss you at Eaton House.
Pat Parenteau
Well, I miss you guys, too, and I'm, I'm very proud of what the school is doing now. It's I think it's entering a new era and taking it to another level as they say. So, I'm happy to see it.